The Life of a Pastor

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Welcome to engaging truth. I'm your host, Matt Popovits. And with me on the program today is Jeff MCOW. He's a pastor and he's with us on the program to talk the realities of ministry inside the mind of a pastor. What are the things that he worries about? What are the things that keeps him up at night? What are the hopes and dreams he has for the people like you, that Phyllis pews, and sometimes Phyllis inbox with complaints. Jeff, thank you so much for being on the show today.

Thank you. I appreciate it. Good to, to see you.

It's good to see you and, uh, you know, tell our audience H how long have you been a pastor and tell us what you love the most about being in ministry?

Okay, cool. Um, I was, um, I'm a, I'm an American kid from Virginia. I was born in 1966. I went to, uh, public schools all the way up to college. I Concordia college in Bronxville, New York. And after four years of Bronxville, New York, I decided I was going to Adelaide Australia to go to seminary until my mother found out about that. And I'm the youngest, I'm the baby. So my mother said he is not going to Australia. So instead of Australia, I went to beautiful Edmonton, Alberta. And, um, and I, when I got there, it was beautiful. It was 110 degrees. And, uh, then within another two months it was minus 45. And, uh, but I went to a little seminary that just started up a year before, up in Edmonton, one of our Concordia seminaries. And I went to seminary for five years because I spent two years in Victoria, British Columbia, and I was a university chaplain there at the university of the Victoria.

And then I went back, finished my master's thesis on how to bring the gospel to the Canadian undergraduate. And then after that, I got a call to British Columbia. And I was a pastor in Canada till 2001, uh, 2002. And then, well, September 11th happened and I happened to be in Austin, Texas at the time, visiting my folks in from there, I was, I was trapped the United States for a week and I was with Jerry Kischnik one day and, uh, uh, pastor Linderman. And we were upstairs after Redeemer Lutheran church. And he said, Jerry Kischnik said, you know, Jeffrey, he goes, yeah, I know Jeff. He goes, you make sure this boy gets home. Next thing you know, I'm getting all these little old nepotism nibbles as I, I call 'em, um, because they know my dad really well. And, and next thing you know, I'm getting, uh, calls to little Texas and from British Columbia, which is quite a John, quite a, quite a travel.

And I went to orange, Texas, and that's where I met my wife. And then I came to Houston, Texas. Um, and I've been the associate pastor here for about 12 years. And then pastor Wilmer, the senior pastor died of a heart attack. And after a year and a half, I became a senior pastor here. So I've been a pastor since 1993. And here's the American in me. I was July 4th, 1993. And I was a pastor. They made a pastor in Canada and, uh, with Lutheran church, Canada for, I was with them for about 15 years. And so that gave me a great perspective on, well, it gave me a great accent for one thing. It, I say a still and, and schedule every now and then and things like that. But, uh, it just gave me a great perspective on my country and I missed my brother.

So when I got back, I joined pastors leadership Institute to try to get to know some American pastors. And, uh, that didn't work out as much as I was hoping, but it was a nice time for my wife and myself and got to learn some new principles, some ways of thinking. And then, uh, but since then I I've been a pastor and I mean, I'm digging it. The thing I love my us about being a pastor is watching the light shine in people's eyes when they, when they understand the grace of God, you know, when they start saying those crazy things like, so you mean I could do anything I want, and God will still love me and forgive me. And I'll be like, yeah, that they, yeah. And they, so, so let's say, I kill say they start going into, you know, like deep into this like degrees of sin.

And I say, yeah, if you, if, if you believe in what Jesus did on that cross for you, you're forgiven. I said, I know, I don't believe I don't wanna believe it either. At times I said, it's crazy. It's just too simple. It, it, it doesn't make any sense. It goes against the grain or everything we believe in life, but man, it's, it's, that's what makes it so true because it's so alternative. It's so unreal. It's so numinous, <affirmative> um, it's, it's so not human attainable. It's something grace is so unique. And so I love watching grace take place in people's lives.

So, so often, you know, when people go to church, they, they see their pastor only on Sunday, or maybe there's some midweek Bible study they go to, and they, they see him there. And so, so for many parishioners, they're on understanding what a pastor does is very focused on, on Sunday morning, you know, preaching and administering Lord supper or teaching a Bible study. But is that, is that all that a pastor does, Jeff

<laugh> depends on who you ask. If you ask my wife, she'll say yes. Um, if you're talking to me, I'll have to say no. Um, I, I, I, uh, I just got back into playing disc golf again. I used to be a scratch player playing disc golf, and then I got precise in my shoulder and got away from it and added 30 pounds to myself just to make it more annoying, to get back into shape again. And, um, and I like to play video games. I, I, I, I like to do things like I'm a pool player. I play eight ball. I played in the league for years and learned a lot of tricks with some guys. She used to go to Vegas every year. And so when I go out and play pool, especially I tell everybody who's I'm with, don't tell anybody I'm a pastor.

Hmm. Usually two things happen. Usually they swear like sailors trying to throw my game off, but it doesn't throw my game off. That encourages me all the more and our, or what they do is, is they get into some long drawn out. I just wanna play pool. And now we're into the, into the realm of ministry and talking about the distinctions of Christianity and, and man, I just wanna play pool, you know, every now and then I, I just wanna play pool when I used to get on a plane from Canada, the United States. And I used to put on headphones and put on shades, but that even though I wanted to just fly and enjoy my, my Walkman and, and just have my fun, God would have a wish sit next to me. Or he would have Satan sit next to me. And, and, and I mean, it's it gods just got such a wonderful sense of humor with me, but, uh, there are times I just crave being Jeff.

It be, but, but Jeff, Jeff is not, Jeff is under some constraints as a pastor, because for instance, I don't drink in front of parishioners. It's not that I'm against drinking. I think drinking's fine. Um, I just don't want to be the catalyst for somebody who has a drinking problem for them seeing me and then equating, you know, and this is my own thing. I'm not saying other pastors need to do this, or this is just my own thing based on my upbringing. And it brought me to this conclusion that it's better just not to drink. So I go to weddings and my wife will hand me the keys and she drinks. She has no issue with any stuff, but I'm the one like, Hey, okay, I, I got it. And, and that's just how I am. And, uh, but what's great about that is when I do have a margarita or a bloody Mary, it's an exciting thing.

It takes on a whole new character. So, yeah. So, but, but it's hard to be Jeff sometimes, and it, it's hard to even watch TV. It's hard to watch movies. It's hard to watch anything or read anything without the thinking. How can I, um, be a utilitarian with this? How can I use this for the sake of the gospel? And that's probably not so bad, but, but you know, sometimes I'm really searching when I'm reading my Cohan comics or things like that. Um, sometimes there's just things not there and I'm trying to make things up because I'm just, I just, I just wanna make use of every bit of my time, even when I'm doing driving, I listen to podcasts, um, that, that entertain me or teach me about things. I just want to be so aware so that I can help people wherever they're at.

So, but I'm still Jeff. I'm just Jeff. But, and around here, my staff, they know me as Jeff. They see me in shorts all the time. They see me in barefoot. Sometimes they see me, you know, I'm not a guy who dresses up. Um, they call me pastor. They, they, they, I, we did, you know, cuz that just keeps some sense of, of, of what's going on here. But, um, they might have even forgotten my name, who knows, but, but, but there, that's what I do here. I just, I try to, we try to, I try to treat place like a mass unit and we have a lot of fun here. And then all of a sudden ministry comes, you know, in and radar or whoever says, Hey, there's choppers and we all get to work, but I love being Jeff, but I also enjoy being pastor too.

And when you're in a church with a school and a preschool, you get a, you get, you get that other dimension of being a pastor. That's like a celebrity that you don't get in other realms, you know, Jeff, didn't get that. When I go home, I'm taking out the trash, I'm, I'm changing the cat litter. I'm doing all the things that, you know, the king doesn't do. Um, but when I'm here, I, I certainly don't demand that people treat me better, but people do treat me, they joke around with me. They tell me stories. Um, they even tell me if I'm wrong. Um, and that's, that's exciting when your own staff feels comfortable enough to do that with you without worrying about, you know, repercussions, but just worrying about the main mission. Yeah. I miss being Jeff. Sometimes when we go, when we go family vacations, I can be Jeff. When I go to my family or her, my wife's family, I can be Jeff.

Well, you know, it, it's, it's great that you share that because really what we wanted to have you on the show is to talk about really what's going on inside the heart and mind of pastors. You know, so often all that we see if, if we're is that Sunday morning presence and, and we don't know, or we can lose sight of the fact that our pastor is a real human being with, uh, with real, with real hurts, with real pains, with real joys, with, with real successes, real struggles as well. And, uh, and we can kind of, uh, romanticize the spiritual leaders in our life. One of the things you talked, I wanna, I wanna dig deeper into is you said that, that you can struggle to, um, to not try and use everything you encounter for the work of ministry. So you're watching a movie with your family. You're, you know, reading a book and there's this constant awareness of, I might need to, or I could use this for a sermon or for an illustration and a Bible study or to encourage somebody else. Yeah. Is that true? Is there, they're just a constant awareness of how you might need to use everything you encountered for ministry,

Matt? I, I try to stay up on culture as much as I can. So I'm a, I'm a PA I'm not a P I'm a, I'm a, who believes you should be salt and light and you should understand your people. So I have watched game of Thrones. I have watched Sopranos. I have watched these shows that, you know, people, but it's amazing the discussions I get into. But one day I was watching Ozark. Okay. Pretty, pretty like crazy show, money laundering and, and all this stuff. And there was this rain, like speech between this and this woman that he kidnapped and, and they're, they're talking and he's talking about reality as he sees it. And she's talking reality as he sees it. And I'm thinking, oh, this would be so great. I should record this. I could use this for communication. And then she drops an F bomb because I show lots of F bombs.

I'm thinking, oh, oh, it was such a great LA. And, and that happens a lot, like come across a great illustration and there'll be all of a sudden be some, some derogatory phrase or something that throws it off. I'm thinking, oh, why'd they do that? That would've been perfect, what I'm trying to teach. And so it's just little things like that, that, uh, that I can't get. I turn, I can't turn off. And, and sometimes it's good and sometimes a lot of fun, but I'm a nightmare. I'm a nightmare to walk through a museum. I'm a nightmare. My wife will tell you that, cuz I'm always, cuz I was a campus minister for two years. I had to learn a lot about evolution and creation. And I mean, and so I walked through it and I'm like, Sonya, how do they know what colors the, as dinosaurs were like, that's crazy.

Or the sounds they make, give me a break. Right? I just go and she goes, would you shut up? And I'm like, if they attach another zero to the end of that, maybe I'll start to believe that that bird became a fish. You know? And, and, and we just joke and she says, stop it already. But it's because I just can't turn off any of this stuff. And nor I'm, I'm a con, my buddy in seminary said, you're are a consummate teacher, no matter what you do, where you go, you're always teaching. And I, I try not to be patronizing. I try not to be pedantic in my teaching. I try to be helpful and funny. Like I try to joke around with it. And, and, and a lot of times my dad always taught me. My dad's a pastor. And he always taught me, if you talk about mistakes from the pulpit, always talk about your self. He said, but if you talk about accomplishments and victories, talk about somebody else, he goes, that will just keep you safe. And so, but, but yeah, they just, just turned it. It's so hard to turn it off. It really is. So it's so fun. Sometimes you see things that, that other people don't see, you know? Yeah.

So, so what are some of the things that, and just speaking from your own experience, you know, what are some of the things that make a pastor really sad or depressed? Is it attendance numbers on Sunday morning? Is that the only thing that can get it? Get you guys down.

I'm a Stephen minister. I I'm a train Stephen leader. So I'm big on process oriented goals. I'm big on the process. God is con go out is in charge of the results. So numbers, numbers, and those things. I, I never quantify numbers. I always remember some crazy story about a, a young lad who was organ grinding with his mom one time. And a missionary came in, talked about deep dark Africa. And it was a blizzard that night and only he, the pastor and his mom were able to be there. And that fellow grew up to be Jonathan, the Livingston. And he, you know, he became one of the greatest missionaries ever. So you come across stories like that. You just say, man, it's not about numbers. Numbers are for my own ego. And you know, probably for other people's egos, but it's not about numbers.

What makes me sad is when I'm either misunderstood in applying the gospel, when people people see it as law. And I realize I, I, I mingled it somehow in their, in their hearing because that's, that's a big concern of mine. Um, but what's sad is when people misunderstand my intentions, we had a hurricane in, uh, in orange, Texas when I was there. And I, and I went with my wife to Baton Rouge, cuz that's where she's from. And uh, I was trying to contact Pete people, but the grid was down in a lot of orange texts after hurricane. That's what happens? The, the grid goes down and it's hard to get cell phones through. And I was, I was trying to reach some members who I knew stayed there, but they never saw evidence of either my message coming through or anything because it didn't even go through the satellite. And then they misunderstood, you know, they made it sound like I didn't care about them. And I, and I, I, and I just said, is this really worth fighting over me? And my gosh, they they've heard me preach. They've been around me. And those are the things that make you sad when, when the stuff that you do, it's tossed aside for one little occasion and the people raise that up in front of you and make that the barrier between you and them, that sad. Yeah.

You're listening to engaging truth on Matt. Popovits, we're here with pastor Jeff. MCOW, we're getting inside the mind of an everyday parish pastor. What are some of the things that they struggle with? What are some of the worries that they have? <affirmative> uh, what are some of the, uh, the needs that they have and that, and that, and that's what I wanna shift to right now, Jeff is what are some ways in which parishioners can encourage the pastors in their lives?

When you hear something in a sermon that you enjoy specific specify it, let the pastor know exactly what it was. Don't just say that was a, that was good sermon. You know, that, that the doesn't do much for anything to help us know, cuz sometimes it's those times that people don't see, they just see the tip of the iceberg and they don't see all the time that went into the sermon and something that you were struggling with and toying with, and God was, was, was pushing you and pulling you in different ways. And you finally went with it and it's so cool when you hear that reciprocated back to you from somebody. And that was a thing that really them and you realize, and you start to see how God is connected in this whole process of, of, of preaching the word. And, and so that's one thing.

Another thing is, is, um, just put the best construction on everything before you believe it about not only myself, but about other people. Um, don't, don't, don't believe something you hear from somebody. It might just be their interpretation of events. And don't assume that pastors are Omni missions. We're not, if you don't us and let us know you're in the hospital, we really don't know you're in the hospital. And uh <laugh> and these days you can't even go into the hospital in some hospitals unless you know, the room in which the patient's in. And so it little things like that that, you know, realize we're just people and we're trying to help. But when I started pastoral ministry, we had a little room in the hospitals we could go to and there'd be a ledger and we could pull, pull, pull, go through it. And it would show you every person who's in the hospital, along with their denomination.

And we could see to visit. I know this is before HIPAA laws came into, you know, and so I've been fast for a long time and that was kind of cool because then you could, you could, you know, have some touch points, but that there were so many abuses with HIPAA. I understand why we went that direction too. But yeah, just be specific about what you like about what your pastor taught you or about what your pastor preached to you assume the best rather than the worse. And also assume that your pastor really does care about you. Um, you know, start there instead of starting in another place, because there's a lot of, lot of, um, lot of pain that goes into getting where we are as pastors. We, we put a lot on the line. We, we get up on a Sunday morning and, and we're sharing our heart with you.

It's not just like we're sharing a bunch of words from some, some page we're sharing our very heart. I can't tell you how many pastors would gladly share with you how exhausted they are on Sunday after church. It doesn't matter. It's once service, it's two services, three services, doesn't matter. You're, you're laying your heart out there in front of people with something that's very precious, which is the faith in Jesus Christ. So realize that, you know, we do get tired and realize it's okay that we say no to things. I, I, I, you know, if I asked you to do something that wasn't in your skill set, I certainly wouldn't want you to fake doing and do it just say no. And if allow me the same thing, there are things I don't know how to do. Allow me just to say no, I, I don't feel like I'm the best and realize that, you know, ex extorting me about how, you know, you pay my salary and, and all this I haven't had, but I don't run into this anymore.

Uh, I, I'm probably not as insecure as a past framework cause I've been doing this for a long time. So the things that used to bother me when I was 27, don't even matter. Now that I'm 54 it's it's, they're just totally different. Um, now I don't need people to give me praise and worship, even though it's kind of nice to get praise every now and then, but I know if it's a good sermon after it's preached, I know if it came together, it well, and that's not, it's not so much area. It's just, it's an art. And so over time you learn how to do this art, but realize we're, we're trying all the time and as pastors, you know, we're trying all the time to make sure that you know about Jesus. That's, that's our biggest concern. Yeah. My biggest concern is not my own life that was given up a long time ago. So reaffirm that. Then I had a wife and kids just to realize how much I can give of my life. Yeah. I, I'm not here for myself. I'm here for them. Yeah. Is it diff,

Is it difficult when people leave a congregation without telling you

Sometimes <laugh> sometimes it's, it's good for everybody involved. Um, uh, you know, squeaky, I remember one time saying squeaky wheels get the grease and I had somebody from the congregation say, yeah, but sometimes squeaky wheels get replaced. And I thought that's pretty funny. Um, but yeah, sometimes it hurts. Uh, we had a lot of that happen when we moved from Jersey village out to here to Copperfield, we lost, uh, quite a few members in the transition. Um, and, and that surprised us cuz we weren't ready for that. But it also blessed us in ways that new leaders emerged where they didn't have an access to leadership before, because there were people in the same spot. So they were maneuvering from different council spots. Uh, and uh, and they weren't giving anybody else any chance to show leadership. And so sometimes when people go away, it allows other people to rise up that weren't able to mm-hmm <affirmative> uh, but it's God's kingdom.

It it's his kingdom. And, and so that doesn't bother me nearly as much as I, it probably should. Um, my probably would, would want me want it to bother me, but it's God's kingdom. And if someone's going to another church, because they feel like they're getting fed better there that's. Okay. Not everybody likes my mother's meals either. You know, it it's it's it's okay. Um, it, it's not St Paul was boring preacher from everything I learned about the UUs the story. I mean, he put someone asleep and he killed him to get worse than that. And then rather than get the hint that it's time to go, he went up there and brought him back to life and continued preaching until the morning. I mean, Paul just didn't get it, but, but it's okay. Not all of us, not all of us. Um, not all help as much as we, I always viewed a gospel, like a gem, like a, like a beautiful, like a diamond.

And as a pastor, I see it from a few angles that I've been taught and I've also seen from other lay people teaching me and, and even my own insight. And what I've learned is that that gem is so beautiful and so big. That one has something to offer to that gem of this Jesus. And the more that we're around each other as Christians, the more that we flesh out, this beautiful gem called Jesus. And, and, and that's what it, that's what it needs to all be about from my end. And also helping other people see what their end is. It's, we're here to shine Jesus to the world. That's what we're here to do. We're not here to be a social club we're not here. And when people that's, another thing that hurts is when people misconstrue what the church is actually about. Like we have a school and a preschool and that's a big burden on a church, you know, I think you're very aware of that.

And, um, and yet it, it shouldn't be because we've got ready bodies coming into our building. I mean, doing this is unbelievable. They're coming into our building and they're actually wanting something from us. And, and why wouldn't we wanna divert a lot of our energy to this, this mission, which is right on our doorstep. I mean, it's, it's when, when people say, oh, well, you know, we should always go out to the neighborhood and all I'm like, yeah, we should, but let's, let's, let's let's work with this right now. Cuz this is kind of energy. This is a little energy. Yeah. And I'm not, I'm not opposed to doing the others, but maybe we'll learn through this. How better to reach that. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and if we try to be all things to all people all at once, we're gonna drain ourselves much like we would in real life. So yeah. I don't even know what the question was anymore, but probably on the time

Jeff, we've got about a minute left and okay. With, with, with that, with that minute we've got left. What would you say as, as a, as a pastor who's now, you know, shared a bit of your heart with us. Yeah. What would you say if, if you had 30 seconds to encourage a weary pastor to give him some gospel, what would you say to him

Trust in that cross? When things look tough that's that's when God's at work. Um, the cross is a sign of how God works. When, when, when the suffering seems to be all, you have realize that now you're in the realm of where Jesus does is best and, and hold on to that and, and hold on, you know, as, as tightly as you can, but even better than that know that he's holding on to you and he will never let you slip and, and he will help you through this too. Just like he's helped you through other things before this. So hang on. Others have gone through it too. Call one of your friends. I bet you'd be surprised how quickly they'd say. Yeah, I go through this all the time.

Jeff, thank you so much for being a guest on engaging

Truth. Okay. Well thanks for asking me. I appreciate it. God bless you.

And thank you for listening. We hope you join us next time. Same time, same channel here on engaging truth.

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