What your Church Worker Needs

Pastor Matt Popovits joins Dr. Gerald Kieschnick, former President of the Lutheran Church — Missouri Synod, to discuss what life is really like for church workers. Overworked, underpaid, and driven by a deep sense of calling, those who work in the church carry unique burdens even as they bring tremendous blessing. How can the compassionate congregant best support and encourage the church workers in their life and what might the local church need to do differently to help ensure a healthy, happy, and faithful crop of leaders in the future?

Transcript

The following program is sponsored by evangelical life ministries.

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Welcome to engaging truth. I'm your host, Matt Popovits. And with me today is Reverend Dr. Jerry ke Schick. He's the president of emeritus of the Lutheran church is a rescinded and also the chief executive officer of legacy DEO. He's here today to talk to us about the realities of ministry and how we can support the church workers in our lives. Pastor Kischnik thanks for being with us.

My pleasure, pastor Matt. Good to see you. Good to be seen rather than you, as they say

It is good to have you with us. Um, uh, pastor ick, you served as the president of a Lutheran church, Missouri Senate. Uh, some of our listeners might not know what that church body is or what a president of a denomination does. Could you, could you quickly give us an overview of, of the LCMS and your role when you served as the president

Lutheran church, Missouri Senate is sort of a misnomer. It's not just in the state of Missouri, it's con quartered there, but it's a national church body with about 6,000 member congregations in about oh 9,000 or so pastors and 15, 20,000 educators, a whole bunch of Lutheran schools. We have an international relationship with 40 or so other partner, church bodies, and the president's responsible for oversight doctoral oversight and ecclesia supervision oversight, primarily working through 35 district presidents around the nation and responsible also for the institutions of higher education. We used to have 10 colleges and universities. Now we're down to eight 10 when I left two seminaries and a whole bunch of boards and commissions that do a lot of work to mostly support congregations and strengthen congregations for mission and ministry.

That phrase support and strengthen congregations, uh, seems to go with another phrase that you use, which is ecclesiastic support, which is, I kind of think of a fancy way of talking about supporting pastors. Um, you and your, in your role is, uh, we're familiar with, uh, intimately familiar with the ups and in the downs of life, in ministry for pastors and really all church workers. Um, and so much of your job was focused on supporting and encouraging and holding those leaders accountable. So based on that experience, one, one question I have for you is help our listeners understand what are some of the struggles that people who work professionally in our churches that we attend? What are some of the struggles and difficulties that they face?

You want me to answer that in 25 words or last I presume? Sure.

Well, I can't quite do that. I think one of the biggest struggles that I experienced and frankly, this was mostly during my days as a district president in Texas, cuz I had more direct contact with pastors in those 10 years than I did in the nine years in the national office. I mostly related to the district presidents, they related to their pastors, but during my I'm in Texas as district president, my sense is that I, I, I encountered a number of church workers. I dealt mostly with pastors, but also with educators and directors of Christian education and church workers across the board. The biggest challenge, I think a lot of 'em faced is that they really weren't certain that they longed in ministry or they really weren't certain they belonged in the ministry to which they'd been called. For example, I remember one young man who was a pastor down in south Texas.

I got a call from the congregational leaders that he wasn't doing well. So I invited him, I called him and invited him to come to the office to talk. He came in and after a little bit of conversation, I said, are you, are you happy doing what you're doing? And he, he said, after a little bit of ofensive thought, he said, no, sir, I'm not. And I said, are you happy being a pastor? And he said, no, sir, I'm not. I said, why are, why are you a pastor? He said, well, my family thought it would be a good idea. He said, really? What would you like to do? He said, I'd like to be an artist. I said, you have permission to go be an artist. If that's what you want to be. If that's what you feel, God is calling you to be.

So he ended up resigning from that for particular church, went to grad school, got a master's degree in art, moved to Colorado, taught art in a junior college and got a, another position as a pastor. Part-time in a small parish and he was a happy clam. He, he, it was around pegging around hole at that point. But until that time <affirmative>, he felt trapped. He felt caged. He just didn't feel like he was in the right calling at that time of his life. So that's a big part of it. Not feeling really that a, a person, a worker is in the right spot at the right time or in the right calling

Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Well, I, I think there are a lot of, um, you know, parishioners who, who have a, who have a, have an idea that boy working at a church must just be, it must just be the best gig in the world. I mean, I mean, who doesn't love working for God and, and doing his work. I mean, when they come to church, it's something they enjoy, right? So the people who work there must just must just have a good time all the time. And, and, um, after all, they, they only do this job because they have a deep sense of calling and purpose. That must be really nice. And, and yet, and yet there are some real day to day difficulties that come with with doing ministry. I mean, mean very often. I mean, ministry people, because it's, it's non-profit work. If you wanna put it that way.

It, uh, it doesn't doesn't pay the highest salary. And yet these are very talented people who in other spots could probably make, uh, a more, uh, a more glamorous living, um, uh, there's needs of other people that are constantly coming to you. It's it's people oriented people are bringing their mess to you all the time. Um, a as a result of some of those, just some of those pressures that I mentioned. Did you see church workers dealing with a lot of things like, um, depression or, or, or anxiety or, or other kind of mental health struggles?

Well, there were, there were certainly, uh, enough of those folks who were dealing with those kinds of challenges. More nearly. I think the, the majority of the people whom I work professional church workers really felt called and were, were challenged by the notion. Sometimes it was their notion. Sometimes it was an expectation transferred upon them by other people that they were to be all things to all people. And if they should have all the interest to all life's questions, they should be able to wave a magical or snap their fingers. And all those problems would be resolved in, in taken way. And to add to that, the reality that wasn't present when I was your age, you, I was the young pastor, but it sure is present now. And that is the high demand, high expectation that people have in every aspect of their life.

Hey, I'm a high demand, high expectation guy. If I have a problem with a credit card charge, I will be able to pick up the phone and call that credit card company. If it's two 30 in the morning, I don't care. Somebody better be there to answer my call. And usually there is it's, it's a machine. It's not a real person most of the time, but that machine can figure out ways to help me, or at least put me off to Illinois. Sometimes I call a, a church office and nobody answers and that's even during business hours, but surely after business, what we call business hours are on weekends. When the church office may be closed, it's just hard to get ahold. Well, excuse me, a church worker sometimes. So a person who has a concern and tries to, to get some help from a professional church worker, can't do that.

And it gets frustrated with that worker because that worker's not on call and not at his Beck in command. So the, it, it may lead in, in worst case scenarios to a sense of depression, clinical depression, in some cases. And one of the things that the church body does is we help congregations find help for those workers who need that kind of help. And sometimes that, that help is provided by the church body itself. In other cases, it's just the, a congregation who helps that worker find help in, in the local community. But hopefully we catch those things before it turns into clinical depression or something even worse than that, when it's just a frustration, it, it kind of, it wears on pastor and church workers when they don't believe they can do everything when they realize that they can't be everything to everybody and they can't do everything that everybody wants at all hours of the day.

Yeah. The, the expectations and the pressures, um, are, are high upon church workers. Um, and, and the pressure I think that church workers put on themselves is really high. Um, one of the things I know about myself as a pastor and I, and I know from, from talking to so many other pastors, is that we are really good at preaching grace to others, but we're very bad at affording it to ourselves. And that there is a, there is a sense that, um, that it's not okay for us to not be okay, and you can get bare under the weight of your, your stresses and your problems and your anxieties and, and feel as though you can't, you can't tell your congregation about 'em, you can't tell, uh, the parishioners that you serve. You can't tell the other staff members that you labor alongside of because everybody needs you to have it together after all you're the pastor of the church, or you're the, you're the, you're the director of Christian education. You gotta keep it together for all these youth. Did you find that it was, it was hard for church workers to admit that they're struggling?

Well, it probably was hard on everybody else, but never was hard for me to do that. <laugh>, that's a joke. <laugh> yeah. You bet. And, and, you know, as you were talking, I was just thinking, listen, and thinking. And one of the things that I believe is really adds to and compounds that sense of not being able to, to really be one self or to be transparent about what's going on in, in the worker's life, has to do with finances. You know, again, when I was young on your wife, Terry, I, I were rocking and rolling in a wonderful congregation in east Texas. We've been there eight years, had a couple of young children. Terry was a stay at home, mom, active in the community. And I was a pastor of a growing church and involved in the community. And then all of a sudden, I got a call to go to where we live now, Georgetown out to start a brand new mission, nothing that wasn't anything here, piece of land that was it, nothing, not a paper qu plus a big pay to go with it. And that was in, that was in hello, 1981. You weren't even born there were, were you

Born? I, I was, uh, I was pretty young, but

I was born fairly barely. Well, we took a big pay cut in 1981 interest rates. Believe it or not, maybe you've heard about this were 16 to 18%. I mean, it was ridiculous. And we were, we were, we were sucking some win. We made that move. It was a, not a smart thing financially by all, by all accounts, it wasn't smart financially, but it was it calling, you know, we just felt compelled to come do this. So we did Terry went back to work, but there were days when there were months when we lay all the bills, we, and I'd look at 'em and say, which one of these are, are not gonna get, is not gonna get paid this, this month. In those days, they didn't have the, the stiff late charges or penalties or fees that they have now. So we were able to get by, but we had to pay interest on those sort of things.

And, and it was a tough, tough time. I questioned whether that was the right decision to make. I questioned whether the Lord really wanted me to stay in this ministry at this place. I questioned whether it was fair to my family to put 'em through. I was a daughter who was probably, well, she was in the sixth grade at that time when we moved and, and we laid on the line and told the kids, you know, some things are, don't have to change. We're not gonna be as, as readily available or, or able to spend some money. The way we have been, our little daughter said in tears, does that mean we're not gonna be able to have our pizza every Sunday night. That was a family tradition. And Terry said, you know, if I have to go iron clothes or, or clean houses, we're having pizza on Sunday night.

So it's the financial struggles that sometimes are very real. And those are caused either by inadequate compensation or by lack of good faithful, responsible stewardship on the far of the church worker himself or herself, maybe a third one is student indebtedness as a result of college and seminary, or just college education. Some of our workers come out with high five or low six. That's not this high five high five, or low six figure indebtedness. And that's an Albatros around their neck. It's just hard, hard, hard to get rid of really is. So those financial pressures really can weigh down a, a person and make it difficult. Who do you tell about that? Yeah. You tell the congregation, Hey, I'm fixing to go bankrupt there. If I don't do something different, no, you don't do that. So it's you, the worker just kind of keeps it inside and figures tries to figure out a way around it or through it. And sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't,

You're listening to engaging truth. I'm your host, Matt. Popovits just a reminder with me on the program today is Reverend Dr. Jerry Kischnik. He's the president emeritus of the Lutheran church, Missouri Sy. He's also the CEO of legacy DEO. We're talking about the realities of being a professional church worker. So many of us who are listening, we're part of local churches, and there are men and women who serve us faithfully week in and week out. And they always have a smile on their face, but we know it can't be easy. And Dr. Kish, Nick, from, from his perspective, his unique perspective as a denominational president and still serving the church at large today, he understands the realities of life and a local church for whom that's their full-time vocation. Dr. Kischnik for those of us who are part of a local church, and we want support and encourage the, the people that serve us there, who work there, what are some, some practical things we can do to make sure that insofar as it depends on us, it's a positive, healthy experience for them.

Now, a couple of things come to mind. One is have realistic expectations, not unrealistic expectations of the church war that you're dealing with. Don't expect that person to be all things to all people. A second one is do everything you can to provide adequate compensation for that person, because that, that is a challenge, particularly in today's world, I'd say maybe or three respect that church worker's family and personal boundaries, something I'm losing track of my numbers here pretty quickly, but something else that comes to mind that's that I think is very important today is helping provide a church worker with the opportunity for continuing education and or coaching.

It can be lonely in professional church work. And if there's not someone there to hold the hand of that worker and walk through the tough times, that can be challenging. I'm still doing a little bit of pastoral coaching out with a fellow pastor. We did started this several years ago and the, the, the opportunities that we've had with the pastors that we coach and still are, is simply to listen and to say, sounds like you're on the right track or Bubba. What in the world are you thinking don't even, don't even have a second thought about that action that you just told us you were contemplating. So someone to sound act as a sounding board or to, from a, from a objective detached perspective, not emotionally and get aged with, uh, the situation that, that, that worker is facing. Being able to help that, that church worker think through decisions and, and the opportunities and vision, and to, to do that in a, a responsible and sound in intelligent way, rather than going off and doing something impulsive that will shoot him in the foot or her in the foot.

So if you have the ability to, to be, be an advocate for your church worker and, and, and many times, you know, in, in local churches, you can, you serve on a board, you have a volunteer position of influence. You have a of influence in those positions over the lives of these church workers. You, you can be an advocate for their proper compensation. You can be an advocate for healthy boundaries, and you can be an advocate for their development. And, and if you've got people in your congregation, if you're, if you're a pastor, if you're a, a full-time church worker, if you're a director of worship, if you're, uh, leading the youth group and you, you know, that they're are people in your congregation who are saying, look, we need to make sure that this person is properly paid, and we need to make sure that they get time with their families. Like we get time with our families, and we need to make sure that they're developed that they're coached up, that they're encouraged, man, you you're, you're in a great spot as a, as a, as a church leader, Dr. Kesh, Nick was give us a story of, of your time in the parish and, and someone who, who did that kind of thing for you. Do, do you have a story of someone who came alongside of you and, and, and breathe life health support into your ministry?

Well, I suppose there was none comes specifically to my mind at this time. And part of that may just be that, that by the grace of God, my method of doing ministry and I, I attribute this probably to my time at Texas a and M at the core of cadets, I learned how to live and lead under pressure. And that experience in those four years find finally ending up as commander of a company, as we call them of 150 students that, that prepared me to face a lot of circumstances, a lot of decisions, lot of situations that could have been disastrous, but I had learned over those four years, how to make decisions and how to seek counsel and how to I wanted this from my parents also, how to evaluate a circumstance before making a decision, moving forward, thinking about the pros and cons, the positives and the negatives, and making hopefully an intelligent decision.

So I, by the, again, by the grace of God, I had never got myself into the kind of trouble. Whereas someone had to come along and pick me up and dust me off and put me back on my feet. That's not said, braggadociously. It said thankfully, because did have some wonderful training. I, I think that something that to the responsible and loving congregational members could, could consider and, and something that every church worker needs to consider. What's the church worker's responsibility in this whole thing. It's not just congregations providing all those opportunities that we've mentioned and talked about so far, it's the church worker developing and modeling a sense of self discipline, a modeling, good and godly stewardship of life and money and time taking care of, of one's of one's self presenting himself and, and acting and speaking, and even dressing and grooming professionally.

You know, I see some church workers these days that are wearing some pretty sloppy looking jeans with holes at him and their shirts are tucked out and their shirts. Aren't all that great to start with. Uh, you know, I, for me to dress like this, for something like we're doing right now, I am very casual today. Cause normally for something like this, I'd be all either collared up or suit or suit and tied up or something like that. So I, I get the, the casual of the informal of, but it could still be professional and all that stuff. So the point is we have responsibility as church workers to take care of ourselves. Yeah. And not to rely only on congregational people to pick us up.

Yeah. And, and there's something to be said as a, as a professional church worker about, about kind of commanding the, the, the respect and, uh, the support that you would like, right. You know, carry yourself in such a way that people, that people want to properly remunerate you, and that people want to make sure that you care for yourself, bring your best to your work. And, and, and then hope that people see that you bring your very best to your work. And then that they, they bring their very best to support you. Um, there's

A partnership deliver the best work product, you know, how to deliver. Yeah. Do the job recently, I talked with a, a pastor who's a who's associate pastor was simply not doing the job, ended up resigning. You gotta do your job. This is not just a cakewalk here. This is serious business. We're representing the Lord of the church, the God of the universe. And he, he demands and expects our very best.

Dr. Ke thank you so much for your time. Um, we've got just a, uh, about a minute left or so, and I wanted to give people a chance to learn more about your work with legacy Dao. If you could give us just a brief overview of what legacy day is and where people could go to find out more about

It. Sure. I'll do the last thing. First, www dot legacy, dao.org legacy, L E G a C Y D E O. Dayo is a Latin word for God. Legacy means legacy to God, legacy from God legacy of God. Legacy for God. A legacy is something of lasting importance. So we help people make decisions that will create a legacy, something of lasting importance for their family and for their church. For other charitable organizations, we help people do their wills. We recommend people do beneficiary designations on their financial accounts or retirement accounts so that when they pass away where they want that money to go goes quickly and you easily, without having to be probated, we manage endowments for congregations and for schools and for other agencies and institutions. Those are the kinds of things we do. We help people make creative and non-traditional gifts to their church through appreciated assets like stocks or their IRAs of four for other financial instruments, life insurance policies. We help people think about the best way to be good stewards of what God has entrusted to their care and to make a legacy, leave a legacy for their family and for their church and the good Lord calls them home. That's what we're all about. Www talk legacy. They Reverend Dr. Ke

Nick, thanks so much for being our guest today on engaging truth. Thank you for listening to this broadcast of engaging truth. Be sure to join us each week at this time, to help support our ministry, contact evangelical life ministries, post office Fox 5 6 8, Cypress Texas 7 7 4 1 0, or visit our@elmhouston.org, or find us on Facebook at evangelical life ministries. Thank you.

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