Liberty Alert With Rev. Dr. Gregory Seltz

The following program is sponsored by evangelical life ministries.

Welcome to the Liberty alert with Gregory. Seltz sponsored by our friends at the Lutheran center for religious liberties here in Washington, DC, a program that cuts through the chaos and confusion in the culture today by talking to kingdom, citizenship, old biblical principles for a robust public Christian life. And now your host, Dr. Gregory sells

Good day, good day, Washington DC, and friends of the L C R L all across the country. I'm Dr. Gregory Seltz and each week we try to come on this program and address the issues in the culture, the issues in politics that are of concern to people of faith. And that's one of the things that we're gonna talk about today. Today, we're talking about title nine. And when you think about title IX, title IX was something that was created to protect women's sports in our culture today, incredibly because of the confusion of sexual identity issues and gender identity issues, title nine is now being used to actually drive women out of sports. And, and so, again, it's one of these things where we, if you do not acknowledge the uniqueness of God, creating us male and female, if you can't say that they're equal, but they're different, you get into all kinds of issues. So bear privilege to have with us. Um, Matt sharp, Matt, uh, serves as senior council and state government relations national director with Alliance defending freedom, and he and his organization are knee deep in these title IX cases. Welcome Matt.

Thanks for having me.

And we're also gonna be talking with Tim Galine vice president of external government relations for focus on the family. Welcome again, Tim. Thank

You so much, Greg and Matt, it's great to be with you as well.

All right, Matt, let's start with you. Um, you know, there are two key cases, soul versus Connecticut, and I I'm, I think I'm saying this right Heacock versus little where ADF is representing girls who are being hurt by this present cultural confusion concerning gender and sex protections. Can you share the particulars of these cases where they stand? How are things going in court?

Yeah. So let me start with the Connecticut case. Cause this is the one that really launched a lot of what we're seeing across the country on this issue. Uh, so Connecticut, several years ago, their athletic association had adopted a policy that said that students can participate on teams based on their, their gender identity. So what it means in practice is that a biological male can participate on a girl's soccer team, track and field team, et cetera, simply by saying, I now identify as a girl and what happened. This played out exactly that way. That two males that had, uh, one of them had actually competed in men's track and field began identifying as females and quickly began dominating female sports, not just in Connecticut, but throughout new England, right? Uh, between the two of them, they captured over 15 championships, broke over 16 records previously hail by girls, uh, and over 80 instances where girls lost a spot on a podium or the opportunity to advance because of these two males.

And in particular that hurt, uh, several of our clients. Uh, so we're representing Salina soul, Chelsea, Mitchell, Alana Smith, and, um, and their challenge to this policy, uh, because these incredibly talented young women lost opportunities. Uh, Chelsea for example, came in second place because one of these males took the first spot in some of these competitions. And so she lost out on the, the benefit of being first. She lost out on college recruiters, being able to look at that, that time sheet and see who was at the top, what wasn't Chelsea Mitchell under these rules. Wow. And so they're challenging it saying this is depriving women and girls are the equal athletic opportunities. The title IX was supposed to provide us. You are taking those opportunities on track and field and in other sports and you are now giving them to a guy and that is not what title IX was meant to do because ultimately girls now get less opportunities as a result of that. Uh, so we filed a lawsuit. We're challenging the athletic association, Connecticut inters, Scholastic athletic association. We're challenging the school districts that are allowing this to happen and essentially making those arguments. This is violating these opportunities for these girls. Um, we are now on appeal. Uh, we had an initial lower court ruling that threw out the case. Um, and we're appealing that. Uh, so we're now at the second circuit court of appeals, uh, seeking justice for these incredibly talented young women.

That's amazing to me that, uh, you know, I, I can't get my mind around this, that we're, we're literally serving up these young girls to this and, and we have these agencies that are supposed to be protecting us, uh, that are actually doing it to our girls when they should have been the ones doing the protecting as well. What about that second case?

Yeah. So in response to what happened in Connecticut, we started seeing, uh, lawmakers step up and say, what can we do to stop what's happening in Connecticut from happening in our states? And one of the ones that has been championing this, uh, is Idaho and, uh, Barbara E. Hart. Who's a state legislator there, um, has played sports coach sports and women's basketball and has really passionate about this issue. And so she introduced legislation. Uh, the first of its kind in the country called the fairness in women's sports act. It's very simple. It just says, men are not eligible for women's teams. Doesn't matter how a male identifies. He can identify as male, female, non-binary two spirit, et cetera, but whatever it is, he's not eligible for girls teams. Uh, again, simply reasserting what title IX has long said, which is that you can have separate teams for guys and girls.

Uh, and so this law passed and has actually inspired numerous other states. Uh, we now have 11 states in total that have passed legislation, protecting fairness and sports, uh, but unsurprisingly, uh, the a C L U challenged it and brought a lawsuit, challenging Idaho's law on behalf of, uh, a college athlete, a male, uh, that had been competing in women's sports. They're, uh, one of the colleges in Idaho. And so Idaho is defending that law and ADF. Uh, we are actually intervening. We joined that lawsuit on behalf of two college athletes to incredibly talented girls there that are also track and field and have benefited from what this law would do. They they've benefited from having a fair level playing field, concerned that if this gets struck down, what is that gonna mean for them? What is it gonna mean for their opportunities? Um, and so again, we had an initial, uh, adverse ruling, a court there and joined the law, but we're now appealing.

And it was interesting cuz on appeal, we found out that the male student that's challenging, this, uh, is no longer enrolled in college and may not be, even be eligible to play sports anymore. So now the case is back over some, some disputes about whether that, that male student even has standing to challenge this law yeah. Or whether it's been thrown out. Um, but again, I, I think the, the big picture to take away is how these cases in, in Connecticut and how the, the actions of the Idaho legislature have really, you know, sort of born a movement. Um, I don't know if you saw, you know, with, with governor DeSantis, uh, you know, sort of issuing a proclamation sort of declaring who was the rightful winner, uh, the NCAA women's swimming championship, but it's just really been inspiring to see how this is caught on across the country and this real movement to preserve fairness and women's sports.

Well, absolutely. And so much of this just seems like it's common sense, but Tim, as a society, we have always defended the equality of the sexes, even as we honor the differentiation of the sexes. And I guess the question right now is how did we get here? How so many of our agencies that were designed to protect the integrity of sports competition. Now they're undermining this, they're literally attacking this in reference to fair competition and more so culturally, how, how did we get here?

Well, focus on the family, totally agrees with Alliance, defending freedom, totally agrees with the Lutheran center for religious Liberty, that moral relativism, uh, that has become the, the, the, you know, the abiding philosophy of, uh, of progressivism. Uh, the practical application of progressivism is ultimately at war. I might say rebellion, uh, against the natural order. And so what we have and what we're seeing again, so beautifully articulated by my, uh, friend and colleague from ADF is we are seeing objective reality and gender, you know, dualistically come under, uh, attack. It shouldn't have to be said, but men or men and, and, and women are women. And, uh, but we have to remember, we have to remember, uh, the late great George Orwell famously observed that the first duty of an intelligent person is to restate the obvious. And so, uh, this is the era in which we find ourselves, may I say here in Washington, whether you're a progressive or a conservative left, right.

Democrat, Republican, independent, you know, you, you pick, but we all walked when a us Senator at a, uh, at a Supreme court confirmation hearing, uh, asked, uh, you know, one of potentially nine members of the Supreme court, the nominee, uh, judge Jackson, if she would define a woman. And of course, as we all know, judge Jackson said that she could not, why could she not? She was asked because she said, she's not a biologist. Th this is the kind of illogic that we are seeing be routinely applied, uh, in the public square, none more so than in the quest and the desire and the need to protect girls and women's sports. And that's, uh, why, what ADF is doing, why, what focus on the family is defending is so important.

Absolutely. And, you know, we see the narrative come to fruition in the, the legalities. I mean, that's what we're talking about here. And I guess back to you, Matt, I, I struggle with it this way. I mean, have the egalitarians and I, I call 'em secular pies, but I mean, have the egalitarians, uh, have they finally boxed themselves in, I mean, because there is a reality to male, female X, X, X, Y, and they're telling us that there isn't, and, and this, this narrative has been going on for a long time. It, it, it didn't just come, you know, it's been happening long even before the sixties. And so the question I've, I'm asking is have they legally, uh, are they boxing themselves in or do they have wind in their sales?

Yeah, no, I, I think you're right. I think they are coming to, to this conflict with, with sort of that ideology, that worldview. Um, but I do think it's encouraging to see that there is legally and otherwise, and even, even some from passionate feminist groups that are, that are starting to push back and say, no, this, this is not what we fought for. This is not what we stand for. There are differences between men and women, right. That are caused for celebration and, and not erasing all of those. Um, you know, and they're pointing to, to statements like those from the late Ruth, uh, bad Ginsburg, um, when she was saying that, yes, we, we need to allow women to, uh, enroll in the Virginia military Institute. But that doesn't mean we abandon the, uh, different physical standards or, or abandon having separate dormitories in living quarters for men and women, because there are physical differences and it is okay for society to acknowledge those for our laws to acknowledge those and, and for our sports programs, even to acknowledge those. And so I, I do think they are getting boxed in if, if you erase that, then ultimately like someone said, does that mean we just don't have women's and men's sports at all, because what that ultimately means is there will be no women in sports. It will just be men dominating this universal category.

Yeah. And, and, you know, it's just gonna be funny to see, I mean, in, in other discussions, on, on racial issues and things, they're starting to erase Martin Luther king for the same reason that he doesn't fit where the narrative's gone today. I wonder if, if RGB will eventually fall victim to that as well. And wouldn't that be something where this liberal icon, I, I, when, when she passed away, I was at, you know, the, the, this funeral where they headed in DC and everything. And wouldn't it be amazing if the narrative comes to the point where they have to kind of disavow some of the things she said about these issues too, and back, you know, so Tim, back to you, I, I guess what, why is it so hard how to, to culturally speak of equality and, and, and uniqueness, and, you know, I, I guess I always say it this way, even in church, uh, you know, we know what to say on mother's day, we really do those sermons are great, but on father's day, I've been in a lot of places where they just, they, they rip it. There's nothing unique about a dad where there's something unique about a mom. And now we're even saying there's nothing unique about a mom because transgender, uh, women can have children. I mean, it's, it's crazy where we've gotten, but why did we find ourselves? I mean, cause because the church and people of faith are having a hard time speaking joyfully about these things and definitively about these things, why do you think that is,

You know, uh, as a, as a Christian, I, and I'm assuming all three of us share this view, you know, we, we, we believe in a, in, in a divine plan and we believe that, uh, you know, that, that, that Providence sows it all together in a, in a tapestry. I say that because truth can, can, that that truth can overcome lies. You know, that there is objective truth. There is objective reality. And there are millions of Americans who happen to be progressives. They happen to be Democrats who simply do not hold truck with this, uh, you know, attack on girls and women's sports. They may otherwise agree with a lot of the things that maybe some of us would not agree with, but, but when it comes to their own daughter, they look at this national debate. And I think in a healthy way are seeing, wait a minute, this really doesn't make sense.

And so I think in, you know, and I believe we all do the greatness of America, we are having a major national debate right now in the, in the world of ideas. And I, and I I'm, anate optimist, I believe very strongly, uh, that, that, that, that ADF is going to prevail in these cases. Right? I do believe that. Uh, and I believe that the overwhelming majority of, of Americans are people of Goodwill who say, this is absolutely illogical. You know, this, this does not make sense. And I have to believe that the law will follow. I, I do believe that.

Yeah, there's so much common sense to this. I mean, it's written, it seems to be written in our hearts. It is written in nature. I mean, this is what the scripture says, but I mean, even people who don't believe in the Bible kind of sense these kinds of things. And I, I love, uh, Camille Paglia. Who's, who's probably no friend of any PO of us in terms of policy or, or philosophy. But, you know, she said one time, she said, you know, about these things, whether it's God, whether it's nature. I mean, I know he has FA this is all fashioned a certain way. I'm just at war with it. And, and when she said it that way, she was just being honest, because she was saying, I understand your position too, because you you're logically following through with things that we all can see. She said, I'm just, I'm just at war with that. And, and you've gotta appreciate that kind of honesty. What we don't appreciate today is kind of trying to say, there is no difference here. There's no discussion here. It's all the same thing. No, it's not. So back to the legalities. Um, yeah,

Forgive me if I may turn on precisely that point in light of what Matt said just a moment ago, very precisely by may. Mm-hmm <affirmative> I have a very good friend Washington, and he said, we ought to be very careful about what he calls the sir Galla had theory of politics. Okay. You know, which is that, which, which is that we will prevail simply because self evidently we have the best case. Right. You know, um, my, my friend, Matt knows that that is just not, you know, you have to litigate you, you don't get up in the morning saying, I wanna litigate. You don't get up in the morning saying I wanna go to work today. And I want to have a major cultural debate, uh, about what is a man and what is a woman. It's not that we want to do that, but on the other hand, as Christians in the public square, whether it's focus on the family Alliance, defending freedom, the Lutheran center for religious Liberty, we have, what's called a vocation and we are honor bound to negate the sir gall ahead, theory of politics and public policy. And we have to apply reason and faith together, what is possible. And that's why, uh, we want Christians to engage like never before, because these cases really matter.

And listen in, uh, folks, if you're listening in today, uh, you know, that's been the main focus of our work in Washington is that it in the whole idea of, of, uh, church and state having and being in relationship to each other, America actually put the whole Caesar role, which used to be on top and the citizen on the bottom, put it in the hands of the citizens. And so as Christians, we've been given this great honor to function, not only in our vocations, but even just as citizens as those who actually have to take a role in this. And, you know, we talk about it all the time. The narrative is the thing that comes first. And if we don't fight folks in the, in the, in the, um, realm of ideas, I think then the legalities have a hard time because even if we have a great case, uh, it's amazing what people can do if they, they move your heart in another direction. So I guess the then final question legally, um, Matt is what's next for ADF on these cases. Um, do you have a sense of this kind of thing? And then how can we support you and how can we be a part of this going forward?

So, as I mentioned, these cases are still moving through the legal system, uh, and there's others that we're engaged in. Uh, there's a challenge to Florida's, uh, save women's sports law that was enacted and, and others, and, and we're gonna continue to stand with these female athletes that are standing for truth, uh, that are standing for the understanding that there are God created differences between men and women, that those are caused for celebration, not erasure. And that's what we're ultimately standing for in all of this. And so we're gonna continue to advocate for this issue. We're going to continue to, uh, promote these stories. Uh, like you were saying, Greg, I know the legal principles are there, but we're going to stand with these female athletes that are putting themselves out there, um, that are going and saying, look, this is wrong. And I'm going to put my reputation out there. I'm gonna put all of, all of my frustrations with losing out to men out there. Um, and what we've seen time and time again, is that when girls like Selena and Chelsea, these other stand up, that there are others that become emboldened as well. And, and I think that is why it is so vital for all of us to stand up because the, the boldness of when to stand up and, and clearly speak the truth and say, this is wrong, and this is not how our society should be ordered. It can encourage others.

You know, it's funny. I was just thinking about this too, in medicine, one of the great advances in medicines, they started treating men and women differently because of their biology, because every cell is either male or female. And now these people on terms of outward appearance are saying, are trying to deny all that a as if that's gonna be good for men and for women. That's crazy. You know, one of the things too, Matt, I would say is, we've gotta tell our legislators are part of the narrative process. They're the ones that are supposed to be building these narratives and we keep leaving it for the courts to decide everything. I think that's something that I'm becoming much more aware of in terms of the politics of things and the it's not for the judges to decide this it's for us in conversation, through our legislators, with our fellow citizenry, that's how we're gonna get this really done. Right. Right. And

I think people showing up, I've been, uh, so encouraged to see so many, uh, female athletes showing up at these legislators to testify, to show their stories and to, to advocate for legislators to pass common sense, necessary laws, to protect fairness and women's sports.

Yeah. I, I might say, I would say exactly in that regard, uh, Greg and Matt, I think we are in the midst of a national parental rebellion where parents said enough is enough, you know, uh, where, where a man who was actually running for the governor of the Commonwealth of Virginia, uh, suggested, you know, that when it comes to, uh, schools that, you know, parents ought to kind of butt out and, uh, and of a sudden it, it sparked this, uh, view, uh, I'm paraphrasing Charles Murray who said, you know, ideas are everywhere, but knowledge is rare. Right. And I think that, that, that, that, that the strength of these cases and the strength of the argument of protecting girls and women's sports, right. Mm-hmm <affirmative> is that it's rooted in knowledge, it's rooted in objective reality, it's rooted in the reality of the God given blessing of, uh, you know, of male and female. Right. And so I, I think that we will continue this debate unfortunately for years to come. But I think it is this idea that, that we have knowledge on our side,

Well, knowledge wisely applied. Yeah. I, I think that's exactly right. Thank you for that, Tim too. I, you know, I saw this coming, uh, even when I was the young man in the Billy Jean King, Bobby Riggs, I remember that like, it was yesterday that rigged tennis, uh, event, if you will. And they were trying to tell us that men and women are exactly the same and I love women's, uh, tennis. I love women's golf. I love women's sports, all these different things, but I knew they were different. And so here we come, and we've always, this has been our view from time and Memorial. We celebrate equality and we celebrate and honor difference, especially for our daughters, especially for our wives. And so, you know, Matt, thank you for, you know, engaging in the, the legalities of this, because I think you're the backstop. You're the one who says, you know, we can't go any farther than this, or we go over the edge. My only worry is, I wonder if the narrative side, if, if, if we're, I think you've got some great opportunities at the legal side, I think we've gotta do a better job of the narrative side that actually empowers what you're doing there. But thank you so much for that, because I think you're finally bringing some of these things to the attention of our culture.

Absolutely. It's, it's been encouraging to see, uh, just the, the support that these girls have received when they step up. But I agree we need more and more to do it and to speak out, uh, to speak the truth.

So you, uh, let me just reiterate that. So the girls are getting great support too, cuz I worry a little bit once they lift their head up like this in these cultural battles, we've seen what happens, but so far so good.

They have, it has been, I mean, even among their teammates, um, that a lot of them are concerned about speaking out and uh, and you know, behind the scenes are saying, we appreciate what you're doing. Right. Um, and again, just the voices from the left and right. Like I said, there's radical feminists that are speaking out and saying, you know, keep fighting this fight. Yeah. Um, and, and on all sides, just standing up and I think that's been an encouragement to them to know that, uh, there's a lot of support for what they do.

Yeah. And, and we used to just said something too. I just think it's worth pointing out. And that is that a lot of times we can disagree about application of some of these things, but we have fundamental agreement even with people who disagree with us about the role of government in deciding these things. Or once we hit a, a common foundational principle, you'd be surprised at how many people join you. Right. Maybe that's what's happened. And Tim, we just gotta keep the battle going on the cultural side. Right. I mean, focus on the, family's been engaged in this for a long time, but did you ever think we were gonna keep pushing this far?

You know, it, it, it's interesting. My, my answer to that is no, but it, it is incredible that there were a whole generation of Christian and conservative public intellectuals and figures who actually beginning in the 1920s and thirties, mm-hmm, <affirmative> began to warn, uh, about, about the trend of the culture. And, uh, and many of them, uh, were deeply criticized and personally attacked for saying, if you continue to go down this trajectory, you may end up in an era where moral relativism is actually defining the most important issues in the public square. Right. You know, if you undermine family, if you undermine marriage, if you undermine the role of parents above all, if you replace, uh, you know, a, uh, a religious Republic with a highly secular Republic, I, if you remove, uh, God from the public square, you, if you continue in this way, you may end up ultimately in the public square, uh, battling some very, very difficult issues.

Well, Francis Schaffer said whatever happened to the human race. And one of the things we're trying to defend is that there's still such a thing as a human race of men and women. So Matt, thanks for being with us today. And Tim, thank you for being with us today. And God bless you both in the work that you do. Thank you so much.

Thank you

So much. Thanks for tuning in today to get to know our L CRL DC work better. Check out our website@lclfreedom.org till next time. God bless you. Always I'm Gregory. Seltz have a great week.

You've been listening to Liberty alert with Dr. Gregory Seltz executive director of the Lutheran center for religious Liberty in Washington, DC. This program has been brought to you by the Lutheran center for religious Liberty.

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